(no subject)

[greenygal]

The Ollie/Dinah scene in GREEN ARROW #40 hurt a lot less than it could have.

Yes, I know, not exactly resounding praise, but trust me, given my venomous feelings about the root of this storyline, that's practically a hallelujah. People were more or less in character. It was an effective scene. Maybe there will be interesting fallout. Fine.

...I've been debating one aspect of that scene elsewhere, and it's occurred to me that it may be time to play the gender-reversal game again.

So we have a man and a woman dating. The relationship has always been passionate but conflicted, and they broke up once before, triggered when the man caught the woman kissing another guy at a party. Now they're back together. But suddenly the woman becomes distant and emotionally withdrawn. The man attempts to talk to her about this, asking if there's anything she wants to tell him. She tells him no. He suspects she may have slept with an acquaintance and is now feeling guilty about it. Finally, he tells her he thinks they should stop seeing each other. She calmly says "okay." Frustrated by her lack of reaction, he tries again to get her to talk to him.

And when that fails, he punches her, hard enough that she goes to her knees, hard enough to draw blood. And then leaves.

No, nothing wrong with that scenario.

In other words, folks, I am not on board for any "go Dinah!" stuff. Regardless of how Ollie has behaved--and bearing in mind that Dinah doesn't actually have any proof of the major thing he did wrong--I really dislike the idea that the appropriate thing for her to do about it is to punch him. Yeah, she's a woman and she's several inches shorter than him--who cares? She's a dangerously competent martial artist and she hit him so hard he bled! For being emotionally distant and then agreeing to break up with her! In my world, that is not okay. Not at all.

I'm not saying it was necessarily out of character. As I've pointed out, she's done it before. I think it would be nice if there were repercussions, but I can see how there wouldn't be--the only person who knows isn't likely to do anything about it. I don't think there's anything wrong with it as a scene. I just think that what it accomplishes on a moral level is not to give her any kind of standing as wronged womanhood striking back, but only to drag her down into the ditch with him.

Thank you, this has been your daily soapbox.

Comments

[chiefseamonkey.livejournal.com]

Dinah always seemed the dominating or controlling half in the relationship. So, if you look at it that way, it makes sense. Plus, Ollie seems to want to be punished, which Dinah's more than willing to do. *shrugs*

[iamza.livejournal.com]

You know, I hadn't quite considered Dinah's actions in that light before. And you're right--Dinah may have a theory for why Ollie has withdrawn, but she has no proof.

She's a dangerously competent martial artist and she hit him so hard he bled! For being emotionally distant and then agreeing to break up with her! In my world, that is not okay. Not at all.

I think that Dinah, as a martial arts expert, would know exactly how hard she could hit Ollie, and not cause damage. And I think when Dinah hit out at Ollie, it was less out of anger for what he'd done, and more about rage and disappointment in herself for having gotten involved with him again. But the more I think about it, the more I agree with you. She really had no right to hit out at him.

[caia-comica.livejournal.com]

....I was wondering when you were going to get around to this :). And yes, I do agree. (And this is certainly an interesting counterpoint to the various WiR threads, though not necessarily an opposing one. Merely interesting that it came out the same week.)

Although--there've been several thought patterns going through my head about violence and communication among superheroes, particularly in the greater Arrow/Lantern family. With Ollie, violence is sometimes an effective communication method--see GA 20--and I can see this, maybe, as a last-ditch effort to get Ollie to fight back; but as he's highly unlikely to hit Dinah (back) in any circumstances[1], especially when he's feeling he's wronged her, it's certainly an ill-advised move on her part. Totally aside from the moral wrongness, of course.

I think it would be nice if there were repercussions, but I can see how there wouldn't be--the only person who knows isn't likely to do anything about it.

Hmm. Mia overheard them, didn't she? Man, that's gonna screw her up. Though, maybe, if she tells Connor...

[1] excluding sparring or mind-control, of course.

[illmantrim.livejournal.com]

I totally agree one hundred percent.

It is never ok to take out yer anger or pain or sorrow on yer loved one or parnet with violence. Dinah doing this shows she has a hell of a lot of growing up to do herself too. She has issues, as many as Ollie's and she has no proof and no real reason to strike him other than frustrattion. which if she did it in public would label her a villain instead of a hero.

i would like it for there to be a story down the lien wherte we learn someone did see it and it comes home to haunt Dinah that she was very wrong and now someone else either takes after her, or brings her action to light at the worst time.

I had this arguement with a couple people who dont see it the same way and am glad to hear you do.

[greenygal.livejournal.com]

Dinah always seemed the dominating or controlling half in the relationship. So, if you look at it that way, it makes sense.

That's an interesting statement, and it's one I'd have to think about to say if I agreed with it. It doesn't contradict my point, though; I believe what she did, I just don't agree with it.

Plus, Ollie seems to want to be punished, which Dinah's more than willing to do. *shrugs*

It's very possible that he wanted to be punished, and even if he wasn't actively trying to get Dinah to strike out, I imagine he thinks he had it coming. But I don't see "someone might want me to punch him" as a justifiable reason for punching him.

[greenygal.livejournal.com]

You know, I hadn't quite considered Dinah's actions in that light before. And you're right--Dinah may have a theory for why Ollie has withdrawn, but she has no proof.

Right. Given how much we know, it's very easy to forget that Dinah doesn't know it. She suspects, of course; she may even be certain. (She certainly sounded that way in BOP.) But all she actually knows is that Ollie started behaving strangely after the death of Joanna Pierce, and she's jumped to a conclusion as to why.

I think that Dinah, as a martial arts expert, would know exactly how hard she could hit Ollie, and not cause damage.

I agree with you that she didn't seriously injure him (although it's worth noting that her control of herself at that moment was obviously not real high). I pointed out her expertise because one of the general underlying assumptions about female-on-male violence is that a woman can't really hurt a man. I wanted to stress this is *not* the case with Dinah.

And I think when Dinah hit out at Ollie, it was less out of anger for what he'd done, and more about rage and disappointment in herself for having gotten involved with him again.

I think it was probably both--and I'm not ruling out Caia's suggestion that it was a last-ditch effort to provoke him into reaction, as well. But obviously, being disappointed with oneself is an even worse reason to hit someone else....

But the more I think about it, the more I agree with you. She really had no right to hit out at him.

I'm convincing! Yay! :)

[greenygal.livejournal.com]

....I was wondering when you were going to get around to this :).

I'm so predictable. :) I actually didn't have any plans to write about the issue--my POV is likely to be about 180 degrees away from anyone else reading the book, after all--but then I got into this other discussion about the domestic violence angle, and I realized that if I were going to complain about how no one was talking about it, maybe I ought to talk about it.

(A number of people in that discussion do feel that Dinah's actions were wrong. This makes me feel better, though I'm still positive that it's not half the reaction this issue would have gotten if the genders had been reversed.)

Although--there've been several thought patterns going through my head about violence and communication among superheroes, particularly in the greater Arrow/Lantern family.

Ah, see, and here is where my argument falters, because yes, there's a fair amount of casual violence running around comics. GA #20 is a great example, and I've never felt any need to condemn it. I can come up with reasons why that is--it's a two-way fight, for a start--but it's still something that I should bear in mind before I start talking about unjustified violence.

With Ollie, violence is sometimes an effective communication method--see GA 20--and I can see this, maybe, as a last-ditch effort to get Ollie to fight back;

I can see the possible motivation there, yes, but on the other hand the way the scene is staged argues against it. Dinah doesn't hit him and then stick around to yell at him, like Hal; she hits him and then in the next panel she's turned and is heading for the door.

but as he's highly unlikely to hit Dinah (back) in any circumstances[1], especially when he's feeling he's wronged her, it's certainly an ill-advised move on her part. Totally aside from the moral wrongness, of course.

Oh yeah. If she's genuinely trying to provoke a fight, well, she should know better. Ollie's sexism and his protectiveness of her combine into pretty much an ironclad guarantee that he will never hit her (subject to your exceptions).

(Which is another reason the scene bugs me--there's no risk to Dinah; she's effectively lashing out at someone who's got his hands tied behind his back. I'm meant to applaud this?)

Hmm. Mia overheard them, didn't she?

She did?

*goes back to check issue*

Huh. Okay, it's unclear. Mia could have heard them, or they could just be using her as an establishing shot. Now I suppose I'll have to go through my back issues and see if I can work out where Ollie and Dinah are, because--well, what you said:

Man, that's gonna screw her up.Though, maybe, if she tells Connor...

...who of course has his own views on domestic violence, not to mention Ollie and his screwed-up life. *eyes bunny warily*

[greenygal.livejournal.com]

Thank you. Yes.

[chiefseamonkey.livejournal.com]

Ollie and Dinah were in the basement. Mia was in her room on the second [or third, if the house has it] floor. I highly doubt she heard anything other than muffled shouting.