i think dick, especially at 18, might have consciously, even, thought, 'gee, if bruce is a spoiled twit, who's gonna help me out when my folks die?' but he's just not that selfish. subconsciously, that might still play a factor, but dickie is really not the type to let others suffer for him.
It's not that I don't think he would have thought that--it's that, in the context of this particular story, I don't think he did. We see his thought balloons, and they're all about Bruce.
I also don't think it would be particularly selfish of him to be concerned for the fate of an orphaned young boy who, after all, isn't him. But it might have taken longer than the day or so he had here to properly wrap his brain around that concept.
i wonder if dick might have felt differently were nontragic!bruce not so much of a brat.
Possibly. Of course, the idea that five minutes of observation of an eight-year-old is sufficient to judge whether they'll do anything worthwhile with their life is pretty silly, anyway... I think it may be the combination of Spoiled!Bruce and no Batman that's disturbing him--I doubt he'd approve of either component singly (he's already expressing concern that there won't be a Batman before he ever sees the kid), but I don't think he'd argue quite so strongly as he does faced with both. Just supposition, of course.
also, dick is far more pragmatic than bruce is.
While I know what you're getting at here, it's never wise to underestimate the pragmatism of Mr. "Contingency Plans To Kill All My Teammates," there. :)
dick isn't deluding himself into thinking he can fight 'crime' as an abstract, nor does he think that he can clean up an entire city, and leave it, one day, free of all 'bad' people.
Which doesn't stop him from trying. ;) No, I know what you mean. And he's far more willing to enlist help in the matter than Bruce is, Tarantula notwithstanding.
he's pragmatic enough, in fact, to understand that you have to suffer in life sometimes.
Ah, and here's the key to why I insist on reading in all this subtext to this story. I agree with you that Dick does not take pain and tragedy as the kind of personal insult that Bruce does. That he's far more capable of moving on. And that he can accept, for himself and for others, that good, even necessary, results can come from tragic things.
But he does not ever take that attitude to the extreme that he should stand by and let tragic things happen, especially if they involve innocent people dying or people he loves getting hurt, because he thinks it's for the best. I think that normally the very idea would appall him (heck, I can think of a few stories where it did), and the fact that he's arguing for it here suggests to me that there must be more going on in there than is being shown.
i think, given the same opportunity, he likely would have said 'no.'
I think he'd be in a hell of a dilemma, there, especially if it was like this story and an actual AU, not a chance to change his own life. On the one hand, I agree with you and whoever wrote that line (I vaguely remember it, I think) that for himself, for all the grief involved, he'd rather that things turned out the way they did. But would he be willing to let the Graysons die for it?
...damn. Damn. Now I want to write this story. *swats bunny hurriedly*
bruce would never be able to feel that way, even on his best day, so he would feasibly make the choice to watch the world slip away, if he could just recapture what he lost.
You'd pretty much have to convince Bruce that saving the Waynes would lead to the destruction of all life on Earth to get him not to interfere. And even then it would be touch-and-go.
interesting stuff. (sorry for blathering in your journal...)
I want you to blather. If I didn't want people to read and comment, I wouldn't put these things up in a public forum. :)
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branchandroot
no subject
Date: 2003-11-14 06:48 pm (UTC)It's not that I don't think he would have thought that--it's that, in the context of this particular story, I don't think he did. We see his thought balloons, and they're all about Bruce.
I also don't think it would be particularly selfish of him to be concerned for the fate of an orphaned young boy who, after all, isn't him. But it might have taken longer than the day or so he had here to properly wrap his brain around that concept.
i wonder if dick might have felt differently were nontragic!bruce not so much of a brat.
Possibly. Of course, the idea that five minutes of observation of an eight-year-old is sufficient to judge whether they'll do anything worthwhile with their life is pretty silly, anyway... I think it may be the combination of Spoiled!Bruce and no Batman that's disturbing him--I doubt he'd approve of either component singly (he's already expressing concern that there won't be a Batman before he ever sees the kid), but I don't think he'd argue quite so strongly as he does faced with both. Just supposition, of course.
also, dick is far more pragmatic than bruce is.
While I know what you're getting at here, it's never wise to underestimate the pragmatism of Mr. "Contingency Plans To Kill All My Teammates," there. :)
dick isn't deluding himself into thinking he can fight 'crime' as an abstract, nor does he think that he can clean up an entire city, and leave it, one day, free of all 'bad' people.
Which doesn't stop him from trying. ;) No, I know what you mean. And he's far more willing to enlist help in the matter than Bruce is, Tarantula notwithstanding.
he's pragmatic enough, in fact, to understand that you have to suffer in life sometimes.
Ah, and here's the key to why I insist on reading in all this subtext to this story. I agree with you that Dick does not take pain and tragedy as the kind of personal insult that Bruce does. That he's far more capable of moving on. And that he can accept, for himself and for others, that good, even necessary, results can come from tragic things.
But he does not ever take that attitude to the extreme that he should stand by and let tragic things happen, especially if they involve innocent people dying or people he loves getting hurt, because he thinks it's for the best. I think that normally the very idea would appall him (heck, I can think of a few stories where it did), and the fact that he's arguing for it here suggests to me that there must be more going on in there than is being shown.
i think, given the same opportunity, he likely would have said 'no.'
I think he'd be in a hell of a dilemma, there, especially if it was like this story and an actual AU, not a chance to change his own life. On the one hand, I agree with you and whoever wrote that line (I vaguely remember it, I think) that for himself, for all the grief involved, he'd rather that things turned out the way they did. But would he be willing to let the Graysons die for it?
...damn. Damn. Now I want to write this story. *swats bunny hurriedly*
bruce would never be able to feel that way, even on his best day, so he would feasibly make the choice to watch the world slip away, if he could just recapture what he lost.
You'd pretty much have to convince Bruce that saving the Waynes would lead to the destruction of all life on Earth to get him not to interfere. And even then it would be touch-and-go.
interesting stuff. (sorry for blathering in your journal...)
I want you to blather. If I didn't want people to read and comment, I wouldn't put these things up in a public forum. :)